Dweller Community Forum

General Category => Translation Discussions => Topic started by: JeMaCheHi on August 10, 2012, 02:10:24 PM

Title: About gender marks...
Post by: JeMaCheHi on August 10, 2012, 02:10:24 PM
Since the only active translators are Mateusz and me I figured I could create this thread to requesting that gender marks support we talked about earlier...

For Spanish, I'd need that marks to translate suitably the quality of items (Deadly, Worn, Nimbly). To give you an idea about how this works in my language it would be like this

(I'll translate Deadly): For Male -> Mortífer(o)
                                  For Female -> Mortífer(a)

As you can see, I just need to change that (o) and (a) to make the gender. In some cases could be another letter, but it's always the same. I don't know much about coding, but I thought that it could be done with our friendly tokens @whatever...
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on August 10, 2012, 02:37:05 PM
I'm doing it the same way, leaving the gender-related endings in (),
and so does Bubus for the french translation. If you look more closely
at the item prefixes on the gengo site, there's a also couple comments
regarding german translation of such prefixes, suffering from the same
"genderlesness".

Supposedly, this is why another text file called Items is in the making
on that translation site. I guess this will adress the problem.
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: JeMaCheHi on August 10, 2012, 03:22:48 PM
I think leaving that (o/a) is a little rough...
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on August 10, 2012, 04:43:37 PM
Nothing you can do about it for now. Unless of course
you want everything to sound like it was spoken by
Tarzan, lol.
 :P
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: JeMaCheHi on August 10, 2012, 05:28:13 PM
Hahahaha no way!
What I'm gonna do is to translate every non-gender related stuff. I'm not so fast so I hope that Björn have done something when I reach that translation level. ;)
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on August 10, 2012, 10:05:02 PM
Just realised the prefixes would be different for plural
items as well, so its not only a matter of gender but
also of quantity, say "Nimble Sword" and "Nimble Swords"
won't be using the same form of "Nimble"...
 :-\
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: JeMaCheHi on August 11, 2012, 12:21:29 AM
Yeah, I noticed too. We need a more complex system to introduce those prefixes... I think that using that (o/a) style is pretty rough and I don't like it....

Please Björn, do whatever you can (when you have some time of course n.n") for solving this...
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: JeMaCheHi on August 27, 2012, 03:51:01 PM
How is this going...?
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on August 27, 2012, 04:32:32 PM
I've found another solution in my translation to keep thing right
(according to grammar) without the need to use those (o/a) thing.

I'm simply puting all the item prefixes into brackets and make them
read not "deadly" or "swift" [item name] but "(deadly item)", "(swift
item)", "(charged item)".

This way, there's no need for genders in those prefixes.
Apparently, this is the solution other games use as well, when there's
no way to translate from english (all words only having one "version").

So it looks like this:
You pick up (knightly item) a Dagger.
You equip (deadly item) (swift item) a Shortsword.
etc.
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: JeMaCheHi on August 27, 2012, 07:28:53 PM
That looks pretty odd, Mat... I think that (a/o) marks were better... That new form is like... more complex or something
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: swooboo on December 26, 2012, 06:28:06 PM
Will read this topic later (tldr) but I think Bjorn needs to scratch the whole idea of gender
specification completely, and I think it is both easy to implement _and_ will make future
translation/s easier a task.
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Dweller admin on December 27, 2012, 11:48:27 AM
Ok, so I need your help grasping what the problem is. Here is my understanding at least:

* An item (noun) has a gender (male, female and in some languages neuter)

* An item can have a prefix (adjective) such as Deadly, Swift or Slow

* Depending on the gender of the item the prefix changes slightly

If the above assumptions are correct we need a way to define the gender of each item and a way to provide different versions of each prefix (one per gender).

Is this correct? Am I missing something?
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: swooboo on December 29, 2012, 11:01:57 AM
Seems right. Still, consider solving the problem by switching to different descriptions:
'swift armor'  -> 'armor of swiftness' ("быстрый доспех" -> "доспех быстроты"). Then,
there would be no need to specify gender of a noun.
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Dweller admin on December 29, 2012, 12:24:49 PM
Ok, but what about an item such as "Fast Shortsword of Fire"? Would that be "Shortsword of Swiftness of Fire" or "Shortsword of Burning Swiftness" or something else?
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on December 29, 2012, 12:38:13 PM
Moving the preffix into suffix would solve most of the problems with my
language as well when it comes to genders. Just like with this Swoboo's
example.

As for multiple suffixes Bjorn is concerned about, maybe simply add "and"
inbetween?

"Shortsword of Swiftness and Fire" - I know it doesn't sound perfect but
to be honest, it's still better than "(Swift item) Shortsword of Fire" I'm
forced to use right now (which solves the gender problem as all prefixes
relate to "item", so they're always in the same sex).
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Dweller admin on December 29, 2012, 01:44:00 PM
Ok, so for some other languages things would be a whole lot better if the @0Shortsword@1 was Shortsword@1@0 and we made some other changes to how the item name was compiled. I guess we'd need to break it up into these parts:

Shortsword@0@2@1
Shortsword[ of Fire][and][Swiftness]

@0 [of Fire] = the standard item suffix that we use today. this part doesn't need to change, the translations can be kept as they are
@1 [Swiftness] = the standard item prefix that we use today. these need to change for languages such as Polish and Russian.
@2 [and] = this is a new translation key, let's call it PREFIXSUFFIXSEPARATOR. This needs a translation for languages such as Polish and Russian.

Note that in languages such as English and Swedish the item names would still look like @0Shortsword@1 and nothing needs to be done with these translations. The @2 would be omitted.

But what about an item with double prefix? Would the system described above work for an item such as this:

Knightly Swift Shortsword of Fire -> Shortsword of Fire and Knightly Swiftness
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on December 29, 2012, 03:39:35 PM
Won't work for double prefix (like in the last example). To be honest,
I ran thru the list of prefixes and stuff a lot of them won't make sense
at all - what would, say "indestructible" turn into? "Of indestructability"?
What about "Old" or "Drained"?

We're barely scratching the surface of the problem.
 :(
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Dweller admin on December 29, 2012, 06:24:18 PM
Ok, so back to the drawingboard then. Is what I wrote here: http://forum.dwellergame.com/index.php?topic=163.msg1953#msg1953 correct for Polish as well? Ie, does Deadly, Swift, Defenders etc change depending on gender of item?
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on December 29, 2012, 07:20:15 PM
Yes, that is correct - the prefix needs to change according to the gender
of the item. This means 5 possible different prefix variations (some can
sound the same):
- masculine singular
- feminine singular
- neutral singular
- masculine plural
- feminine plural

Even worse, the same gender-version of a prefix will be different depending
on the gramatical case it's used in! For exaple, in english:

(You see a) Swift Shortsword is the same as (You are now using) Swift Shortsword

But in polish, it's:
(Widzisz) Zwinny Krótki miecz as oposed to (Używasz teraz) Zwinnego Krótkiego miecza.


Pandora's box has been oficially opened.

;p
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Dweller admin on December 29, 2012, 07:48:51 PM
Oh my!

I think I can manage to deal with one prefix per gender in a generic way that a) doesn't affect existing translations where the prefix doesn't change depending on gender and b) that doesn't require that much work for translators

Each item needs to be gender marked per translation. This can easily be done by adding a 6th field to each item:

ITEM_SHORTSWORD = @0Shortsword@1|@0Shortswords@1|a @0Shortsword@1|the @0Shortsword@1|the @0Shortsword@1's|f

Languages that do not care about gender can omit this parameter and translations can be kept unchanged.

Each prefix needs to have one version per prefix:

ITEMPREFIX_SWIFT = masculine singular|feminine singular|neutral singular|masculine plural|feminine plural|neutral plural

Languages that do not vary prefix depending on gender can be kept as is. No ITEMPREFIX_ needs to be changed.

I will NOT be able to handle context sensitive prefix though. It will either have to sound a bit weird or translations need to be changed into something like:

You see: Swift Shortsword
You use: Swift Shortsword


Would this solution take us closer to an acceptable translation for items in Polish, Russian and similar languages?
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on December 30, 2012, 12:57:40 AM
This is a very good solution... as long as the sentences only use
one grammatical case. To sum it up, comparing to current mechanics,
there will be either:

- different cases for items' names depending on situation, but the
prefixes are messed up or need some workarounds (current)

- nice gender-correct prefixes for all items, but - same case for all
texts regarding items (proposed)

I think this new solution sounds more "rough" as all the texts need
to be dumbed-down. This is basicly a step back.

The real solution for all european-derived languages would be having
each prefix available in all genders and count, multiplied by all cases.
Phew!

Seriously, I think the method we're using for now offers more flexibility
as we only have to worry about genders/cases of prefixes. My current
solution of putting prefixes into brackets together with the word "item"
seems the most elegant when it comes to being able to build proper
sentences.

Here's how it works:
a "Swift Shortsword" is "(Swift item) Shortsword"
something with a different gender works the same:
a "Swift Mace" still uses the same "Swift", because it's "(Swift item) Mace".
Even when the case changes with the context (say, to possesive), this
"(Swift item)" still sounds ok, because these brackets kinda hide the
prefix form view, making it less relevant.
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Dweller admin on December 30, 2012, 12:33:04 PM
Ok, so to sum it up: Let's not change anything?
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Mateusz P-G on December 30, 2012, 01:02:24 PM
Unfortunately, that's the coclusion I'm closing in the deeper
I look into this. Otherwise, the game would need a massive
overhaul with all the text based stuff.

When considering all languages of Indo-European descent,
you'd need 8 cases (just in case, my languages "only" uses
7 but some other might use all 8 or just a different set) and
multiply them by genders (2-3) and singular/plural versions
for all the item prefixes.

Besides, currently items names only have 5 versions (cases)
and the text messages which use them assume that they
will use the same case as in english.

For example - the sentence:
"You block @0 attack with your @1"
uses Nominative "Shield" as in english it sounds the same as
possesive "Shield", but in my language it simply doesn't work,
forcing me to downgrade this message into:
"You block the @0 attack with your shield"
dropping item name part. Luckily, it's always "some shield"
and knowing which shield exactly player has used to block this
attack is not very important. This is going to be troublesome
if some other "offhand" item types or two-handed weapons
will be able to block hits as well, tho.

It's not like I'm trying to be overly negative and discourage you,
just trying to shed some light on the bigger problem ahead.
 ;)
Title: Re: About gender marks...
Post by: Dweller admin on December 31, 2012, 01:18:46 PM
Hmm, well, I guess translations shouldn't be more complicated than they already are. There's already quite a few strings to translate, and adding even more complexity will make it hard to keep the translations up to date as I add more features to Dweller. You guys are after all making this for free (if you disregard the in-game item and my eternal gratitude).