Dweller Community Forum

General Category => Dweller Discussion => Topic started by: Mateusz P-G on June 25, 2012, 08:26:45 AM

Title: Damage distribution.
Post by: Mateusz P-G on June 25, 2012, 08:26:45 AM
I don't know the formulas by which damage is calculated, but they seem to produce
severly inconsistent values. It doesn't really make sense if my beefy Warrior strikes
a rat with a friggin great axe for 1 damage and then slices and dices a Troll for 24 in
his very next move. There's a huge gap between minimum and maximum damage,
especially on higher levels. This applies to spells and arrows as well.

Potential solution to this, would be making the game roll 2-3 times for damage and
then calculate an average of those rolls. This way, the damage would be far more
consistent, while still leaving some room for a chance of lucky damage spikes or low
damage "flesh wounds".

How does it sound?
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Dweller admin on June 26, 2012, 12:35:51 AM
I've started doing some pretty thorough analysis of the melee code and I agree that it is far from perfect as it is now. I will try to rework it into something better, but I'm also very willing to hear your thoughts and ideas.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Mateusz P-G on June 26, 2012, 07:53:12 PM
Not knowing the formulas I can't really add anything else than making Dweller
roll a couple times for every damage and using the average of 2 or 3 rolls.
This should be really easy to implement.

Say, in a simplified model, damage is a random number between 0 and Attack,
What I would like is to make it: (rnd(0, Attk) + rnd(0, Attk) + rnd(0, Attk)) / 3
In the above example, with an Attack value of 20, player could deal following
blows according to the first formula: 1, 15, 7, 19, 0, 3, 4, 20, 3, 14.
Those are spread apart like hell, now lets try the extended formula (average):
9, 10, 16, 11, 11, 9, 10, 9, 12, 13 - much more consistent values.

This way, a Player can count on his predictions and take decisions whether to
fight or flee. With completely random values, one might get deceived by a lucky
(or unlucky) series of rolls, or even worse, killed with 2 consequent max damage
blows out of the blue.

Also, this isn't just melee, spells seem to produce even more severe gaps in
damage rolls, obliterating a creature for 48 damage, while earlier target only got
slight burns for 1 HP.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: ZiZNaK on June 27, 2012, 01:29:35 PM
Hey Bjorn can you give us a break down of how damage is calculated right now?  I'm guessing some sort of random number generator is at work but how exactly?  Is Mateusz example of a random number between 0 and your attack value correct?  To go a little but further how do you calculate magic damage too? 
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Dweller admin on June 30, 2012, 10:44:52 AM
I don't want to go into too much detail since I will rewrite some part sof it anyway, but this is the short version:

Effectiveness of melee attack (A): Random value between 0 and Attack, with Gaussian/Bell shaped distribution to average out rolls

Effectiveness of defense (D): Random value between 0 and Defense, with Gaussian/Bell shaped distribution to average out rolls

Resulting of melee attack (R): A - D

The result (R) of the melee attack is then used to randomly determine how much damage that is made, with adjustments for critical hits and the maximum possible amount of damage you can make, based on wielded weapon.

There are quite a few random rolls going on, but now that I have simulated it a bit more I'm not really happy with the result. It should be simple to understand how damage is calculated and currently it is not. I would like it to be simple enough that you pretty much know what chance you have to damage your opponent, and roughly how much damage you will do.

I've seen more and more games move towards deterministic combat resolution (ie against opponent X you will always do damage Y if your character level is Z). I'm not sure I'd like to take it that far since I do believe that randomness belongs in a game such as Dweller.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: ZiZNaK on July 01, 2012, 11:53:46 AM
Interesting system you have.  The bell curve explains a lot.  I think the key to making dweller more of a challenge lies within a new damage system.  As always there's nothing like ripping some rules straight from the pages of the AD&D system.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Mateusz P-G on July 01, 2012, 02:41:23 PM
I was playing unequipped Warrior just for the sake of it and could eventually kill
anything but Trolls with my bare hands and only basic stats. At level 20 I  was only
matched in damage by Wraiths and Vampires. What saddened me, is how I had
a miserable score of only 13 Defence and could still pull it off with enemies damaging
me for 1-5 per turn.

So yeah, current system is severly broken as it proves no challenge at all.

Here's an idea for a completely new system:

Attack:
- Weapons have their base damage derived from the weapons' Attack stat, for example
a dagger has 4 damage, shortsword has 6 and a mace has 8.
Weapons' Attack stat does not provide any bonus to character's Attack (just like with
bows and crossbows)!
- Damage that the weapon can deal is randomised as inbetween half its base damage
and 150%, so following the example its going to be: 2-6 for dagger, 3-9 for shortsword
and 4-12 for a mace.
- Every point of character's Attack provides additional 2.5% damage over the base.
So for a character with 20 Attack, the damage would be: 3-9 from dagger, 5-14 from
shortsword and 6-18 from a mace.
- Attack speed would normally apply like it does now, to balance out the differences
between different weapon classes (base damage vs attack speed).

Ranged weapons:
- These would work just like melee ones, the only difference being that arrows/Quivers
would add to base damage. Regular quivers add nothing, others say from 1 to 3.

Magic damage:
- Simmilar to weapons, books with different spells would provide different base spell power.
Then, Magic stat of the caster would provide bonus damage % in simmilar way (2.5% for
each point in Magic)

Defence:
- Defence would allow to mitigate part of the damage taken, say (Defence/(Defence+30))%
This would mean that a character with 10 defence takes (10/(10+40))% = 20% less damage
and for 30 defence this would mean (40/(40+40)% = 50% reduction.
- Armors apart from stat modifiers would provide damage treshold as in - a simple reduction
of the damage taken, calculated before the % reduction from Defence stat:
robe -1, leather armor -2, chainmail -3, platemail -4.

Shields and blocking:
- Apart from stat modifiers, shields would provide an independent chance to block incoming
damage, depending on their class:
buckler 15%, heater shield 20%, kite shield 25%, dragonscale shield 35%
- This check would be applied before any damage is calculated.

Evasion:
- Speed would provide a chance to evade damage just like shield block, but instead of fixed
values, this chance would be calculated in a way simmilar to Defence: (Speed/(Speed+30))%
So a character with 10 Speed has a chance of (10/(10+40))% = 20% to evade, while one
with 40 Speed would have a (40/(40+40)% = 50% chance to dodge.

Defence against magic:
- Because of its nature, magic can easily penetrate normal means of defence. Thus, the only
protection against magic is equipping items with magic resistance. (Armors, cloaks, helmets
and boots could provide small amounts too, instead of just 20% for every item with "protection
against harmfull magic").

To hit chance:
- There is no to-hit chance, all hits are succesfull unless dodged/evaded or blocked.

Cloaks, Helmets and Boots:
- These provide normal stat modifiers like before.

Modifying existing creatures:
- All monsters would have to have their "base weapon damage", damage tresholds and
damage reductions (from innate or supposedly equipped armor), "chance to block" and
magic resistance defined.

Reasoning behind all this:
- Such a system would provide way more deterministic outcomes and bring balance between
Warrior's heavy armors and shields vs Ranger's speed and lack of those on Wizard in exchange
for his awesome offensive power.


OR, instead of all this, simply drop the Effectivness part.
 ;D
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Dweller admin on July 03, 2012, 12:18:57 AM
I think I'm on the right track with the new melee and ranged system. All of your suggestions are not implemented but I drew inspiration from it. I hope to have a new version ready in a few days time.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Sewerdweller on July 03, 2012, 06:04:29 PM
i think increasing the challenge should be mitigated by not dying -instead you should re-start  in the forest without any equipment or inventory - all you we carrying should be left in a pile where you "died"  -now you have to spend some of the money you have collected and make your way back down without all your best stuff.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Watley on July 04, 2012, 05:57:47 AM
I like the idea of a restart, but the challenge would need to be greater. I haven't had a character die in many games.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: ZiZNaK on July 05, 2012, 06:29:21 AM
Ehhhhhh... I'm a big supporter of permadeath and think it should stay.  If any kind of restart should be allowed then I think the character should REALLY be penalized like stripped of all equipment and items and money and have their level drained significantly. Also, this should be an option if it's added.  TOME4 has an interesting system where you can turn permadeath on.   
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Mateusz P-G on July 06, 2012, 04:21:52 PM
Yeah, its so difficult to actually die in Dweller at the moment, that removing
permadeath would feel like a major offence.

 ;)
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Dweller admin on July 08, 2012, 05:59:12 PM
Guys, please let me know if you still find damage from melee and ranged weapons to unpredictable/unbalanced.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Mateusz P-G on July 08, 2012, 06:35:45 PM
Looking really nice so far, getting quite consistent damage and much less
blows traded on both sides, this is definately going in the right direction!
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: ZiZNaK on July 08, 2012, 08:42:48 PM
Looking really nice so far, getting quite consistent damage and much less
blows traded on both sides, this is definately going in the right direction!
I second the above sentiment
edit:  2 dead wizards later: both at level 5.  Very well played on the difficulty boost.  Both deaths were a result of me thinking I could still cast my way out of being surrounded.  When covered by more than two enemies at such a low level death can come about within 1-2 turns.  This is great!  I've found myself being forced to think my moves out more.  Did the email dump get removed for 1.20.2? I don't see it now.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Dweller admin on July 09, 2012, 10:20:01 AM
Great! I'm happy to hear that it's a bit more difficult now! I haven't balanced spell damage yet, but maybe it's good enough?

ZiZ: No, e-mail dump is there, but the character has to be alive. I'm not sure how well it works on J2ME though. Starting the e-mail software from a J2ME app is very limited.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Watley on July 09, 2012, 10:42:56 PM
I've gone with a warrior for my first go of 20.1, and while i seem to be slaying even more effectively than ever i noticed that the monsters are doing more damage too, and there's a lot more of them. I don't know if the damage distribution is much of an issue, since the bell curve is probably the best approach, but maybe a bump to defence for monsters.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Mateusz P-G on July 14, 2012, 08:30:41 PM
So, after a lot of games with the new system, attacks seems really
well-polished but its the defence that bothers me a little.

See, while I'm doing quite consistent damage which scales well with
my attack values and the weapons I'm using, defence isn't all that
usefull. I was trying to make a couple Warriors focused entirely on
defence and while the average damage did go down with larger
defence scores, some damage rolls can really easily become lethal
anyway.

This wouldn't be so much of a problem if choosing HP at level up would
give more than 1 (one!?). Rising this value to say 3 would finally make
them a viable choice. This way any player could invest in larger HP pool
to feel a bit more confident when facing those random damage spikes.

This and maybe adding new jewelry "of Life" granting more HP?
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Dweller admin on July 15, 2012, 12:25:29 AM
Mateusz, you are right about the HP. It's silly to only offer a +1 increase. HP is clearly not as important as the other stats. I'll increase the gain in the next version.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Mateusz P-G on July 17, 2012, 08:09:55 AM
I didn't want to make another thread, so I decided to put it here.

Spellcasting takes a lot of time, even when using the simplest of spells!
This is mostly fatal with new damage system, as enemies can easily
get 2 attacks afer the spell and with Wizard's defence, this can mean
even 30 damage in a single turn from only one enemy.

Since spells already have the cast cost getting really high with AoE ones,
I guess they should have the cast speed equivalent of 80-100% attack
speed weapons.
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Sewerdweller on July 17, 2012, 02:47:35 PM
After playing for weeks without a death -I'm 5 games into the new set up  and i've got 4 dead wizards and have not made it to the Minotaur yet . now working on a warrior -hope to see better results with heavy armor and lots of healing potions - do not let your hp drop below 3/4 full.
 
Title: Re: Damage distribution.
Post by: Mateusz P-G on July 17, 2012, 07:42:34 PM
Haha yeah, I'm now trying to win with Wizard too and already
left a nice couple corpses on level 3 and in the Minotaur Maze.

Its definately the problem with cast times being too high. Even
single Orcs are very likely to kill you by hitting twice after the
spell is cast. Ranger is squishy too, but doesn't suffer as much
trouble because his ranged attack takes litle time.

Sure you could charm the hell out of every monster, but for me
using the Book of Charms feels like cheating untill its chance
to work will get adjusted (not being 100% anymore).